PORN and the Sex Industry
We had a great discussion about porn and the sex industry tonight. Please feel free to continue it here.
We addressed three main issues:
1. What is porn?
2. Ethics of Porn
3. Porn industry
Here are some of the discussion questions:
Is porn art?
Is porn degrading, and if so to just women, or men too?
Does porn facilitate or perpetuate violence against women?
Who is accountable for the negative consequences of porn, the consumer or the producer?
Why are women’s fantasies never pictured in mainstream porn?
Is porn different in different cultures?
Are submissive sexual roles a choice for women?
What effect does dehumanizing men and women in pornography have on our sex lives?
Is there racism in porn?
Can we make watching porn a positive experience when we watch it by ourselves or with our sexual partners?
What is healthy sex?
We addressed three main issues:
1. What is porn?
2. Ethics of Porn
3. Porn industry
Here are some of the discussion questions:
Is porn art?
Is porn degrading, and if so to just women, or men too?
Does porn facilitate or perpetuate violence against women?
Who is accountable for the negative consequences of porn, the consumer or the producer?
Why are women’s fantasies never pictured in mainstream porn?
Is porn different in different cultures?
Are submissive sexual roles a choice for women?
What effect does dehumanizing men and women in pornography have on our sex lives?
Is there racism in porn?
Can we make watching porn a positive experience when we watch it by ourselves or with our sexual partners?
What is healthy sex?
10 Comments:
Hey all,
It was wonderful to be able to hear the variety of candid opinions, impressions, and analyses tonight.
At the Sex Fair I spoke (read: interrogated) a couple of the TMAC guys and found out that they have awesome anti-violence against women politics. I think that we should coordinate something with them since they are so eager to activate and educate about violence on campus. The men I spoke with had really interesting critiques of porn. I wouldn't exactly call them feminist...but they were certainly pro-woman and really nuanced.
Here's my question:
Like a year and a half ago, some of you might remember, there was a rumor (or story) going around about a female Tufts student on a porn site. The link was pretty heavily circulated. I remember the response being generally either of the "I-feel-so-sorry-for-her" school or of total disbelief.
What do you guys think? Any impressions of women (or men) involved in sex work?
I know most people found it surprising that a Tufts student would get wrapped up in that "type of thing" and I was interest in hearing the feminists' analyses!
Take Care!
-Rebecca
Oops. I forgot to mention.
In case you are interested, Linda "Lovelace" wrote an autobiography about her role in Deep Throat (70s mainstream porn sensation) called ORDEAL. In it she speaks frankly about her own repeated rape, forced prostitution, and abuse over the course of several years. It's a quick read- but not for the faint of heart. It's garaunteed to make anyone question their porn politics in under 20 enrapturing pages.
Also, take a look at www.spreadmagazine.org. The hard copy is available at most women's sex toy shops (GrandOpening/GoodVibe/Babeland all carry it)... It's a magazine written by and for sex workers. See what you think.
Bye again, for now---
Rebecca
You know, I can rarely read feminist literature without feeling attacked (I'm a man). I usually ignore anything with the word "feminist" in it, but when the topic is about pornography, I feel almost compelled to chime in my two cents.
"Does porn facilitate or perpetuate violence against women?"
I've never gotten the argument that porn is somehow linked to violence against women. The literature suggests that only violent porn does so, but only be creating permissive attitudes about sexual violence - that may or may not lead to perpetuating it. Even still, violent porn is such a miniscule part of porn that's actually produced. Most porn just shows people having anonymous sex. You may disagree with it or be repulsed by it, but get violent over it? Does masturbating to Jenna Jameson somehow perpetuates violence? Hard to believe on any intellectual level.
"Is porn art?"
Absolutely, but then again, so it the female body. I cannot fathom how anyone can look through
the photography in Playboy or Maxim and not see a work of art. Not everyone can take photos of
such caliber and make the women look so great. Just look at normal photography in MySpace as a
comparison. Besides, isn't it all context specific? Why doesn't anyone complain about the
sexualized paintings and nudity seen at the MFA? It's dubious to me that it's ok to see naked
women in a painting by a famous artist but not ok to do so in a video or in a porn magazine.
"Is porn degrading, and if so to just women, or men too?"
You can see it as degrading, depending on your taste. I think what why some women view porn this way is because they're so geared towards forming, building, and maintaing relationships. Porn depicts sex as mostly anonymous - something you do to quench your libido much in the same way you drink water to quench your thirst. It's very anonymous and passive, which is very offensive to women. That's too bad, but that the sexes are just wired differently.
Who is accountable for the negative consequences of porn, the consumer or the producer?
No one's ever been able to prove the negative consequences of porn - it's all speculation really. Resolve that question first before talking about accountability.
Why are women’s fantasies never pictured in mainstream porn?
The premise of the question is wrong. Check here for a guide: http://www.babeland.com/sexinfo/features/womenguidetoporn/
I'd also argue the softcore crap on Cinemax late night is women's porn. C'mon. It's not explicit and usually involves some relationship between the characters...even a storyline! Boooring. :) I suspect the person who wrote this question doesn't watch much porn, or she'd (or he'd?) have known.
Is porn different in different cultures?
Yep. In fact, over the past twn years, we've seen Japanese porn have a definite effect on American porn. For example, in Japan, porn was censored where the directors could not show penetration. So, they had to think of a way to visually please their customers without violating the law. What resulted was bukkake, a group sex practice wherein a series of men take turns ejaculating on the woman. That practice has since become increasingly popular in American porn as well. I love diversity. :)
Are submissive sexual roles a choice for women?
Yes. In fact, most men nowadays are little wuss boys who give up all their power to their girlfriends in hopes of gaining approval. Go to a bar or nightclub on any weekend and watch from afar...ir's quite a show. Just recently, I saw a guy approach a woman sitting down by getting on bended knee. Sad. And really, there are plenty of men who wouldn't mind a girl who likes to take charge in the bedroom...most women just aren't confident enough to do so.
Is there racism in porn?
Yeah, but porn is no more racist than greater society. i.e. Interracial porn scenes aren't allowed to be viewed in some parts of the country (you can guess where) where it's still taboo.
Can we make watching porn a positive experience when we watch it by ourselves or with our sexual
partners?
Probably not. Most women, particularly those in their 20s, are too self-conscious to enjoy porn with their partners or even to engage in sex freely and comfortably. This insecurity is rooted in greater society's overwhelming failure in raising girls with even average, let alone high self-esteem. And that's greatly rooted with absent fatherhood as well. So, by the time they reach their 20s, they're too damaged to enjoy porn with guys. They're too busy comparing themselves to the women in the videos rather than just enjoying the experience.
What is healthy sex?
Consentual relations between two healthy adults who are open, honest, straight-forward, respectful, and are as concerned for each other's pleasure as their own.
Dear Gerard,
It seems like you are getting most of your information by drawing on personal experience, so allow me to draw on mine (as a white, heterosexual, woman at Tufts.)
First, let me just address you porn vs. art segment. There is a lot there it's not where I want to focus my attention. In my experience as a feminist working with other feminists there has been a lot of concern over censorship. It is problematic, it isn't something everyone supports or requires. Certainly there are people who would claim that depictions of women in art are as insulting as depictions of women as art.
HOWEVER: the fact that you call the female body art in itself is inherently misogynistic. It implies that it is shaped for the observer or that it's shape is incidentally artistic. Implicit in this is the suggestion that women's bodies are public in some measure- that they can be valued by men. The notion of valuing a woman's body as art implies asymetrical power. A woman's body doesn't exist for your enjoyment- artistic or otherwise. It's not up to you or anyone else to declare it art.
What I really want to address is your assertion that women are "wired differently," that degradation is a function of their own psyches, and that women just don't like sex as much as men. All of these things are untrue. Actually I, like many women, have looked at porn--- I know what's out there and I know about the violence in porn.
Often, porn made for straight men by straight men endorses and encourages these same misconceptions of yours: "Women don't like sex, we have to take it from them."
Why do you think that stories appeal to women more or women don't want sex? You are assuming away women's agency. Maybe the problem is that there is no porn out there that looks like the sex women are having- where as it often depicts men's sex. I am NOT referring to fantasy here.. but reality. Women often find that porn doesn't look like the sex they are having- not because they aren't wild or kinky or into sex... but because porn doesn't really look a lot like sex.
I can't really quote someone from last night- but I can bring up something she said, which was that porn misrepresents female pleasure. I think that's true, after thinking about it. That's not what the female orgasm really looks like... so women are turned off. The men assume that it's just cause sex makes them quesy or uncomfortable.
There is more to say though. I hope other people jump in here!
-anonymous TFA member
This in response to the anonymous poster's comments above.
"HOWEVER: the fact that you call the female body art in itself is inherently misogynistic. It implies that it is shaped for the observer or that it's shape is incidentally artistic."
I fundamentally and vehemently disagree there. Maybe you'll never understand this because we are wired differently. I am a man and as a man, I am very visual. Whether you like it or not, a woman's beauty is what attracts me to them initially. I used to buy into the feminist rhetoric and feel guilty for this, but I soon realized that I was fighting my very nature and was only destroying my relationships with women and my self-confidence in the process.
There's nothing wrong with enjoying the female form. Granted, beauty is only skin deep. I want to know what's behind that smile and those curves...to know what makes her tick, what kind of person she is, what makes her happy. That's the fine line between enjoying a woman's beauty and objectifying women to the extent that all she becomes is a series of body parts.
"Implicit in this is the suggestion that women's bodies are public in some measure- that they can be valued by men. The notion of valuing a woman's body as art implies asymetrical power. A woman's body doesn't exist for your enjoyment- artistic or otherwise. It's not up to you or anyone else to declare it art."
Again, why is it a bad thing for a guy to value a woman's beauty? Is it wrong for a woman to value a man's height? Should we cut out our eyeballs to level the playing field? And there is an asymmetrical power: too many men in our society believe that the world revolves around beautiful women. Consequently, they feel that they aren't worthy enough, get insecure, and never approach and flirt with the ones they really want. They just settle. Sad.
"What I really want to address is your assertion that women are 'wired differently,' that degradation is a function of their own psyches, and that women just don't like sex as much as men."
You know, there's an concept in psychology called projections, where you project your own insecurities onto someone else...me in this case. Go back and reread my post carefully and critically. I NEVER said that I believed women did not enjoy sex as much as men. On the contrary, I think women may enjoy and crave sex more than men. The clitoris is the only organ designed exclusively for sexual pleasure and has thousands of more nerve endings than the penis. Plus, women are more apt to have multiple orgasms, so I know better than to believe the women-don't-like-sex myth.
What I did say (and I stand by what I said) is that many women, because of their insecurities and issues around body image, have a hard time engaging in sex openly and freely. This, btw, also applies to men with performance anxiety...they go limp because they're more worried about what their partner will think of them than just enjoying the act.
"All of these things are untrue. Actually I, like many women, have looked at porn--- I know what's out there and I know about the violence in porn."
Good, then you should also know that violent porn isn't mainstream. Most porn is just sex acts, which I suspect is why you have to keep stressing violent porn. It's tough to argue that a video of people have consensual sex is something related to rape and violence, so you have to go for the more extreme, rarer stuff.
"Often, porn made for straight men by straight men endorses and encourages these same misconceptions of yours: 'Women don't like sex, we have to take it from them.'"
I already address my supposed "misconceptions" above. Porn is entertainment, not education. People who take it seriously are like those annoying reviwers who dislike epics like Braveheart 'cause it's not historically accurate. It's a movie! Same as porn. In real life, no one wants to have sex like they do in porn...that's be uncomfortable. And quite frankly, it feels better to climax inside a woman than outside, but that's just opinion there. But porn is entertainment and most of the consumers are men who are visual creatures. We want to see it all, hence the odd depiction of sex acts where the guy is basically standing up, supporting his back just so the women gets shown. :)
And sex isn't taken: it's mutually shared. You don't lose anything by having sex; you gain pleasure. (Of course, always use protection).
"Why do you think that stories appeal to women more or women don't want sex? You are assuming away women's agency. Maybe the problem is that there is no porn out there that looks like the sex women are having- where as it often depicts men's sex. I am NOT referring to fantasy here.. but reality. Women often find that porn doesn't look like the sex they are having- not because they aren't wild or kinky or into sex... but because porn doesn't really look a lot like sex."
Again, where did I say that women don't want sex?! I agree that porn isn't real, yet so, is most of the stuff you see in TV and movies. I'm stunned that anyone wouldn't know this by now. :) Actually, they do make women-centered porn really: romance novels (if you believe sexually explicit text can be porn as well). In fact, 54% of the books sold last year were romance novels and women gobble this stuff up. Same thing goes for Cosmo Magazine, the #1 Women's Mag for several years running. If you pick up a copy of Cosmo and put it side-by-side with Maxim, you'll be amazed to see that Cosmo discusses sex much more often.
Look, I won't pretend to know everything about the female mind, but I've dated enough to know that women are seduced between the ears and by stirring their emotions - two things visual porn just can't do (without the guys falling asleep). Not ALL women are like this, but most are. You can continue to spit back feminist rhetoric to try to wish the world was different, but that's just the way we're wired.
Wow. That response from "misprint" was just entertaining. I miss Tufts, but what I don't miss is the inability to have intelligent, civil discussion with people in these activist groups without it quickly degenerating into an ad hominem attack.
Time to grow up. One day you'll learn that calling people names won't mask the weak points hidden in your angry diatribe.
Thank you for such a wonderful response to our discussion! Can we please continue to use this forum in the spirit of polite, intelligent debate? We respect the opinions of everyone regarding this controversial topic, as long as personal attacks are avoided.
Here is a new discussion question: It is interesting to see the disparity of opinions and reactions to pornography. If pornography does contribute to sexual abuse, does it do so more than the images we see on mainstream television?
I think Misprint has a point- well, many good ones.. but here I am referring to the last post.
Only by virtue of illustration will I say this: A Jew could not engage in effectively edifying discourse with someone so anti-semitic that he perceives Jews as sub-human. Along the same lines, it is impossible to engage with someone dangerously misogynistic-- even if his misogyny seems to disappears within his peer group (i.e. society at large.)
I do not believe that maintaining polite or civil discourse requires that we "tolerate alternative perspectives" when the alternative perspectives are truly dangerous... Which I, of course, believe Gerard's opionions to be.
-rebecca
This comment has been removed by the author.
Is porn art? Rarely. Degrading to men and women? Sure. But biology and capitalism (two of the most insurmountable forces known to man) dictate porn's existence; the real question we need to be asking is, how do we mitigate its effects? And my answer to that would be, parents in a nuclear family must instill respect for healthy monogomous relationships, and even though that will do more than V-Day, it will still accomplish little.
-P
Post a Comment
<< Home